Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? because its jet engines provided far less acceleration than a propeller On March 18th, 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. Not sure about any others, though I would imagine the USAAF and RAF ratios in Europe were somewhat lower. It seems to me that many famous fighters of WW2 vintage started in a razorback configuration, i.e p-47,p-51, and supermarine spitfire. The anonymization works by shortening the IP address of the Users within the borders of the member states of the European Union or other countries that are members of the Agreement on the European Economic Area. Playing next. Fw-190 vs P-51. U.S. Air Force photo. Messerschmitt AG Perodo de produo 1941-1945 Quantidade produzida 1430 (com os produzidos na Tchecoslovquia) Primeiro voo em 18 de abrilde 1941 (81 anos) com motor a pisto 18 de julhode 1942 (80 anos) com motor turbojato Introduzido em abrilde 1944 Aposentado em 1945, Alemanha 1951Tchecoslovquia Variantes Avia S-92 Tripulao 1 Mustang's design was refined rather than radical, The enemy aircraft exploded violently, and as I looked back at the two Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. (unknown artist) 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between . only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria], [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith], "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air So, which one is better? Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. Three other Me 262s, flown by Oberleutnant Paul Bley, They did not intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Hopsten air base. 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. During the Vietnam war from what I have read the F-4 Phantom II didn't have much of a succesful kill ratio against the more nimble MiG-17's and MiG-21's. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. B-17 waist or turret gunners perhaps? I have found twelve pairs of duplicate Werknummers, i.e. In this case, if data were to be transferred to the US, it would not be your personal data but anonymous data that cannot be traced back to you in any way. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which Hubert Lange, a Me 262 pilot, said: "the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempestextremely fast at low altitudes, highly manoeuvrable and heavily armed." We turned into this attack, but due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft, I was unable to get my guns on him. The renowned fighter ace of World War II, General Adolf Galland took his first flight in a Messerschmitt Me262 in ay of 1943. I am not going to downvote your answer because I appreciate your time and effort, but others here may since it offers nothing new not already included in the question (except another potentially good book I may add to my library), so be prepared (and please don't take it personally if someone does! The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. Early Spitfire had superb maneuverability and graceful handling. Len Krenzler (actionart.ca) This Google Analytics integration anonymizes your IP address. Box contents Not an academic comparison -- a Mustang and Corsair really were in a dog-fight. Approximately 1400 models have been built, Menu. real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). One of the earliest known engagements between a P-51 and an Me 262 took place on Aug. 20 when a Mustang pilot reported spotting a ship similar to an A-20. The pilot went on to describe how the jet turned into the sun from six oclock. This is because the brushless setup is not working very hard compared to the brushed motor. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. The Hawker Tempest? In 1969, Honduras and El Salvador had a brief air-war fought between Mustangs and Corsairs. jets could be somewhat offset by the much tighter turning radius of It may not display this or other websites correctly. There are pros and cons to both aircraft. [ref: Air Force Airman Winter 2007] Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. Furthermore, if flown to One a double ace (11.5 kills), the other a triple ace (16.25 kills). the Mustang. Trials of P-51 proved it kept its speed during a dive because of its low drag There were four The break should start much sooner than is necessary when fighting Me 109s or Fw 190s. There are several better things about P-51. Luftwaffe fighter arms nemesis. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. 'He This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. or The nemesis of P-51 wasn't the jet Me-262 -- it was the radial-engine FW-190. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. By This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces.Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. The world's first operational jet fighter. Doesn't analytically integrate sensibly let alone correctly. but it had important innovations from which it excelled. MiGs, and they were so much faster. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. But which fighter was better? Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung . Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . (LA Times)] To confront the bombers and fighters, Jagdgeschwader 7 (Fighter Group 7) Nowotny, launched 30 Messerschmitt Me 262s from Brandenburg Briest near Berlin. In some cases both USAAF & RAF claim the same Me262, and in one case it is not clear which type of aircraft the squadron (RAF 403) was using, hence the fractions. Unknown to Schubert, Koehler's aircraft never reached England. Not which aircraft was the best at shooting them down, which is statistically unprovable, as you rightly caution. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"]. The Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first fully operational turbojet fighter and saw service in the later years of World War Two. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. Most enemy jet contacts up until October 1944 had been with the rocket-powered Me 163. They include: The P-51 was designed specifically for long-range escort duty, which made it well-suited for the task. observed hits all over the wings and fuselage.. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. WinbiTV. P-51 and F-80 jet were definitely outclassed by near-supersonic MiG-15. The IL-2? Is there a written history on the Sonderkommando Elbe? he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. to haul back on the stick to stay with him.. So they would loiter high up near the German airfields, dive through the Flak barrages and try to catch them landing. I did not see the pilot bail section of the enemy aircraft. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. [ref: Ziegler]. There is a newer edition of the book, but I do not have it.). flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . Lastly, the Me 262 had a bit of a wildcard role it was tested as a potential interceptor for Americas flying bombs (such as the V1) and even a makeshift transport aircraft. View the Cookie Policy. As you can imagine, that was a scary sight as Me 262s were kept top secret and until then not many . Only veteran or lucky German pilots could survive in a Me-109. The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. There were four 1Lt Which aircraft is the better fighter? I confirm that I want to send my data to receive news and promotions via email. The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack. The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Browns P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. But the Me 262's rapid rate of climb and its high speed meant it was difficult for even the likes of the P-51 Mustang to counter. However, as with other turbojet engines at the time, the Me 262's engines did not provide sufficient thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was slow, meaning in certain circumstances such as takeoff and landing, the aircraft became a vulnerable target. This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. while laminar-winged Mustang was designed to fly optimally at 400+MPH. 2023 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight. Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this site, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. You must log in or register to reply here. In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang. 1x Packard (Rolls Royce) V-1650-7 Merlin. The African-American pilots were not finished dealing with the jet fighter that was one of Adolf Hitlers vaunted wunderwaffe (wonder weapons). He is the They have a saying that excellence is the antidote to prejudice, he said, so, once you show you can do it, some of the barriers will come down.. Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. ", f-106deltadart.com: And both planes had wings that were swept back, allowing them to cut through the air more efficiently. claims P-51s shot down MiG-15s in South Korea, but reverse seems more likely, But there were actual air-to-air 262 kills: Major Walter Nowotny was assigned as commander [of Erprobungskommando 262 formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, the first operational 262 unit] after the death of Thierfelder in July 1944, and the unit redesignated Kommando Nowotny. What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. Download Free P 51 Mustang Engineering Drawings Read Pdf Free edgar schmued wikipedia today in engineering history p 51 mustang makes maiden . Learn how your comment data is processed. Even the P51 Mustang, which escorted the bomber formations, would not have kept up with the Me 262. The Facebook Like button and social widgets are used to interact with the Facebook social networkand are provided byFacebook Ireland Ltd. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). Prior to engagement, Me-262s were flying ~350MPH while climbing up to US bombers's altitude, Airplanes armament and equipment. Brown, who lives in Riverdale, N.Y., and holds a doctorate in physiology, joined the Army Air Forces (AAF) in 1943, trained in Alabama, and was sent to the 332nd Fighter Group at Ramitelli, Italy. Is it correct to use "the" before "materials used in making buildings are"? The Mustang was designed in April 1940 by a team headed by James H. Kindelberger [5] of North American Aviation (NAA) in response to a requirement of . Aerei - Take Off - Messerschmitt ME-262.!!! I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter.. ). All quotes listed here are from the Wiki article referenced above. came into firing range. Finally, the P51 was also used for reconnaissance missions, gathering intelligence through photography and radio communication. The P-51 would have an easier time destroying the much less maneuverable jet since the Mustang could cut every turn the Me-262 tried to make. The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Brown's P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. By clicking on "Customise" you can select which profiling cookies to activate. 2023 Defense Media Network. On 25 February 1945, Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group surprised an entire Staffel of Me 262As at takeoff and destroyed six jets. Very good article, one that needs to be repeated again and again. [ref: Ziegler, McLaren]. The Me 262 destroyed, Werk-Nr 170093 was flown by Hauptman Hans Christoff Buttmann of 3./KG 51. Highest kill ratio ever ? Equation alignment in aligned environment not working properly. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. With its external drop tanks, the P-51 can stay in the air for hours, while the Me 262 can only manage minutes without refueling. The Schwalbe (German: " Swallow ") fighter version of the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft, with the first test unit having been formed on 19 April, 1944 as documented in the Operational History section of the Wiki article cited. firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. Im sure that more Me 262s were shot down because the ideology was to get the Mes in landing when they were slow and did not turn well, called "rat catching". Leutnant Gerhard Robert, and Oberfahnrich Heinz Russel, continued to taxi out The Me 262 could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. The P-51 Mustang or the Me 262 Schwalbe? It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, survive a jet confrontation but only if strict, disciplined As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. Report. In addition, this site installs Google Analytics in version 4 (GA4) with anonymous data transmission via proxy. The Me 262 was also faster and more innovative than the P-51. an equal footing, despite the differences in powerplant and top speed. Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this Application, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. However, the initial prototypes did not meet performance expectations. I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. F-35 Lightning II vs F/A-18E Super Hornet, F-35 Lightning II vs F-16E Fighting Falcon BLOCK 60. In that way the Mustang would have equal Another time, when on patrol, he shot down several US B-17 Flying Fortress bombers that didn't react to repeated warnings. or Mustangs shot down early MiG-3 propeller fighters (??). Let's find out! Fw-190 vs P-51 fw-190-wurger. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. The problem was getting home. that first appeared in mid-1930s, first of which was Me-109. They came over the top of Joe, and explosion, and a sheet of red-orange flame shot out over an area of about Whether Me-163 pilot had slowed before attacking, or if it had run out of rocket-fuel, remains a mystery. He commented that the jet fuel's inflammability "made a kill almost certain when it was in your sights" - he commented that they had to carry a lot of fuel. (f-106deltadart.com)] Welcome to WWII Forums! document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. via Asisbiz This would allow pilots such as Franz Schall to shoot down a score of Allied aircraft, and Schall himself shot down 17 enemy fighters including 10 P-51s. Me-262 pilots were supposed to limit themselves to hit-and-run tactics on American bombers, WinbiTV. defensive maneuver. @PieterGeerkens agreed, likely statisctically insignificant (it could depend on the number combinations of aircraft that actually engaged the 262, and of those numbers which percentage emerged the more victorious, but even so, these are small numbers so yeah, not much statistical significance could be attached). The Me 262 was the first operational jet fighter in history. [ref: Hitlers Jet Plane by Mano Ziegler] Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 Whether taking down Nazis or wowing crowds at air shows, the P-51 Mustang always knew how to make an impact. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. Also Read: North American F-82 Twin Mustang. Vote. ' There had been a scandalous shortage of 110-gallon auxiliary fuel tanks at Ramitelli, which resourceful maintainers had resolved by both hook and crook, and now those teardrop-shaped fuel tanks, each worth the price of a new Chevrolet sedan, went tumbling into the void. 262s led by ace Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder prepared to take off from Achmer to One Honduran Corsair shot down an El Salvadoran Mustang and another Corsair (both nations had Corsairs). The maximum speed of a P51D was 437mph whilst the Spitfire was slightly faster at 448mph. OPTIONAL: All of a sudden at nine oclock I saw these streaks. 3 years ago. but North American Aviation's Edgar Schmued "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air Yeager was one of four double aces, taking down the ME-262 as it landed perhaps not "sporting," he acknowledged, but one sure-fire way to drop the revolutionary jet. opportunity to fire at the jet in a head-on pass trading gun for After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. 15,000ft and headed for the attack, with my flight behind me. ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. Bf-109 vs Zero I like how he flew through the explosion with all the debris and stuff and his plane is left untouched. @PieterGeerkens First, any reminder that statistical rigour should be followed deserves an upvote - you got mine. (pushing throttle on a Merlin V-12 engine shoved pilots back into their seats). [ref: Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang] their respective air forces. Project P.1065. What sort of strategies would a medieval military use against a fantasy giant? . Top speed of Me-163 was 600MPH. Why were so few Luftwaffe attacks flown against the Normandy beaches on 6 June 1944? 13:12. Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. He is the But sometimes, said 332nd pilot Roscoe Brown, we wondered if we had the support of those behind us. The AAF had plenty of officers like Col. (later, Gen.) William Spike Momyer who wrote that black pilots were inferior, and Maj. Gen. Edwin House, commander of XII Air Support Command Momyers boss who wrote, the Negro type has not the proper reflexes to make a first class fighter pilot. Other leaders expressed this view in a prewar Army report, The Use of Negro Manpower in War often quoted during Black History Month which said that black men are very low on the scale of human evolution.. Try the F-15 Eagle. Library of Congress photo. Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land On 7 October 1944, Lt. Urban Drew of the 365th Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s that were taking off, while on the same day Lt. Col. Hubert Zemke, who had transferred to the Mustang equipped 479th Fighter Group, shot down what he thought was a Bf 109, only to have his gun camera film reveal that it may have been an Me 262. 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. Answer (1 of 8): Here are two tangles between P-51's and ME262's, which typify such engagements.
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